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Relate (Cell Games) Son Goku, Son Gohan to (Budokai 25) Son Gohan, Vegeta, Son Goku
Topic Started: Oct 27 2015, 09:10 PM (577 Views)
DEY DID DIS 2 ME Oct 27 2015, 09:10 PM Post #1
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 I want to observe perspectives; some members on the forum seem to have Son Goku (Cell Games and Budokai 25) close on power to Son Gohan (Cell Games).
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Thiln Oct 27 2015, 09:19 PM Post #2
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 My justification for the notion of them being relatively close is that Gohan's power from the Cell Games was still being spoken about in a context that made him appear like a respectable benchmark to surpass by the Buu arc. Piccolo wasn't even entirely certain that Majin Vegeta had surpassed SSJ2 Kid Gohan when he saw him.

Why do I believe Goku at the Cell Games was close to his son? For the simple reason that they were training together. Regardless if Gohan had stronger potential at the time or not, Goku would still benefit from having such an effective partner. A difference of like 10-15% is sufficient enough to make Gohan appear like he has a noticeable power advantage.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME Oct 27 2015, 09:36 PM Post #3
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Thiln
Oct 27 2015, 09:19 PM
My justification for the notion of them being relatively close is that Gohan's power from the Cell Games was still being spoken about in a context that made him appear like a respectable benchmark to surpass by the Buu arc. Piccolo wasn't even entirely certain that Majin Vegeta had surpassed SSJ2 Kid Gohan when he saw him.

Why do I believe Goku at the Cell Games was close to his son? For the simple reason that they were training together. Regardless if Gohan had stronger potential at the time or not, Goku would still benefit from having such an effective partner. A difference of like 10-15% is sufficient enough to make Gohan appear like he has a noticeable power advantage.
Would that imply that Son Goku made little progress in power in those seven years he was training in the afterlife? And how powerful did Vegeta expect Son Goku and Son Gohan to be at Budokai 25?
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Thiln Oct 27 2015, 10:00 PM Post #4
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 Goku already felt that he was reaching a barrier after leaving the RoSaT. The fact that he could still achieve some sort of gain for his normal SSJ state over the 7 year time skip is quite notable. As to your question - I consider Goku to have gone up from being 10-15% weaker than his son to being 10-15% stronger. With the largest possible discrepancies for such estimates that's an increase of 30% altogether. Not bad for someone who needed to rely on further transformations to make any significant increases.

I suspect Vegeta may have had an inkling about Goku still being stronger during the tournament. He made no outward boasts of superiority from what I recall and was concerned enough about his strength being insufficient to accept help from Babidi to bring himself up to par with his rival. With Gohan, he originally wanted to fight him as well to see if the gap had closed. He probably felt much more confident going up against Gohan than he did with Goku since he was aware of Gohan's slacking off and was unlikely to have made much, if any progress.
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EMIYA Oct 27 2015, 10:06 PM Post #5
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 What your specific gaps may be is up to your own interpretation but the manga makes it very clear that there is a significant gap between CG Goku and CG Gohan. It gets to the point where Goku was stated to be 1-2 steps behind Cell. This same Cell (assuming Cell did not power up after getting the Senzu as well) not only couldn't even hit Gohan until he used his true speed, but couldn't do any damage to him whatsoever.

That shows that in terms of power, this Cell wasn't much of a threat against Gohan and it was merely Gohan's lack of fighting capabilities that kept him on the defensive the entire time. I can't tell people what the gap should be, but nobody should have the gap close, there was a notable gap between them.

As for 25th Budokai Goku and Gohan. It's just the way the quotes and statements are given. Majin Vegeta states Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell. At this point we don't know the gap, it might be large, it might be small, etc. Come Piccolo's line that Vegeta might be as strong as Gohan and it lowers the expectation a bit.

It shows that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are still in the same ballpark area with the majority advantage of course going to the two Full Blooded Saiyans.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME Oct 27 2015, 10:09 PM Post #6
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Thiln
Oct 27 2015, 10:00 PM
Goku already felt that he was reaching a barrier after leaving the RoSaT. The fact that he could still achieve some sort of gain for his normal SSJ state over the 7 year time skip is quite notable. As to your question - I consider Goku to have gone up from being 10-15% weaker than his son to being 10-15% stronger. With the largest possible discrepancies for such estimates that's an increase of 30% altogether. Not bad for someone who needed to rely on further transformations to make any significant increases.

I suspect Vegeta may have had an inkling about Goku still being stronger during the tournament. He made no outward boasts of superiority from what I recall and was concerned enough about his strength being insufficient to accept help from Babidi to bring himself up to par with his rival. With Gohan, he originally wanted to fight him as well to see if the gap had closed. He probably felt much more confident going up against Gohan than he did with Goku since he was aware of Gohan's slacking off and was unlikely to have made much, if any progress.
How close in power Is Vegeta to Son Gohan (Cell Games)? Relate Son Gohan (Budokai 25) to each of the other aforementioned characters.
Edited by DEY DID DIS 2 ME, Oct 27 2015, 10:10 PM.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME Oct 27 2015, 10:28 PM Post #7
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Dark Matter
Oct 27 2015, 10:06 PM
As for 25th Budokai Goku and Gohan. It's just the way the quotes and statements are given. Majin Vegeta states Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell. At this point we don't know the gap, it might be large, it might be small, etc. Come Piccolo's line that Vegeta might be as strong as Gohan and it lowers the expectation a bit.

It shows that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are still in the same ballpark area with the majority advantage of course going to the two Full Blooded Saiyans.
I think they are considerably stronger; imo, Vegeta wasn't using all of his power at that instant.
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* Yu Narukami Oct 27 2015, 10:35 PM Post #8
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Oct 27 2015, 10:28 PM
Dark Matter
Oct 27 2015, 10:06 PM
As for 25th Budokai Goku and Gohan. It's just the way the quotes and statements are given. Majin Vegeta states Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell. At this point we don't know the gap, it might be large, it might be small, etc. Come Piccolo's line that Vegeta might be as strong as Gohan and it lowers the expectation a bit.

It shows that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are still in the same ballpark area with the majority advantage of course going to the two Full Blooded Saiyans.
I think they are considerably stronger; imo, Vegeta wasn't using all of his power at that instant.
Anything beyond that is pure speculation. They could've been 1.01x stronger or 1.99x stronger if you're going down that route, so it's easier to just assume that the power he was putting out was his max.

As for the topic;

Son Goku (25th Budokai) : 100
Son Gohan (Cell Games): 95
Vegeta (25th Budokai): 75
Son Gohan (25th Budokai): 55
Son Goku (Cell Games): 50

Something like that, anyway
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EMIYA Oct 27 2015, 11:26 PM Post #9
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 I couldn't put a number, but I'd have CG Gohan pretty significantly above CG Vegeta and Goku. If I have them close, then it leads to the issue that Goku and Vegeta barely made any gains in those seven years despite training harshly and earning 1-2 new transformations as well. At the very least, its pretty heavily implied that Gohan was already that much stronger instead of trying to figure out why Goku and Vegeta made such terrible gains, even more so with Vegeta who had to get an increase in power from Babidi.

Mind you, Goku specifically states that he's going to fight at full power when he meets Vegeta and of course Vegeta rivals Goku in this case. There's no reason to believe he's not using that same full power against Boo especially when in the manga, Goku and Vegeta's fight wasn't all that long to begin with and Boo at this point hadn't done any damage to Vegeta either.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME Oct 27 2015, 11:28 PM Post #10
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Nagito Komaeda
Oct 27 2015, 10:35 PM
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Oct 27 2015, 10:28 PM
Dark Matter
Oct 27 2015, 10:06 PM
As for 25th Budokai Goku and Gohan. It's just the way the quotes and statements are given. Majin Vegeta states Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell. At this point we don't know the gap, it might be large, it might be small, etc. Come Piccolo's line that Vegeta might be as strong as Gohan and it lowers the expectation a bit.

It shows that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are still in the same ballpark area with the majority advantage of course going to the two Full Blooded Saiyans.
I think they are considerably stronger; imo, Vegeta wasn't using all of his power at that instant.
Anything beyond that is pure speculation. They could've been 1.01x stronger or 1.99x stronger if you're going down that route, so it's easier to just assume that the power he was putting out was his max.

As for the topic;

Son Goku (25th Budokai) : 100
Son Gohan (Cell Games): 95
Vegeta (25th Budokai): 75
Son Gohan (25th Budokai): 55
Son Goku (Cell Games): 50

Something like that, anyway

I wouldn't say pure spec though Drew; Vegeta found Hatched Boo's power laughable while Son Gohan stated that he would need all of his power to match Boo. Even Son Goku thought Hatched Boo tame.

I have some method to said madness; otherwise, I like the cut of your jib.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME Oct 27 2015, 11:31 PM Post #11
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Dark Matter
Oct 27 2015, 11:26 PM
I couldn't put a number, but I'd have CG Gohan pretty significantly above CG Vegeta and Goku. If I have them close, then it leads to the issue that Goku and Vegeta barely made any gains in those seven years despite training harshly and earning 1-2 new transformations as well. At the very least, its pretty heavily implied that Gohan was already that much stronger instead of trying to figure out why Goku and Vegeta made such terrible gains, even more so with Vegeta who had to get an increase in power from Babidi.

Mind you, Goku specifically states that he's going to fight at full power when he meets Vegeta and of course Vegeta rivals Goku in this case. There's no reason to believe he's not using that same full power against Boo especially when in the manga, Goku and Vegeta's fight wasn't all that long to begin with and Boo at this point hadn't done any damage to Vegeta either.
Well aside from my response to Drew, Vegeta did power down when Son Goku insisting on stopping and then took Son's Senzu from him before going after Boo.
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EMIYA Oct 27 2015, 11:32 PM Post #12
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 I think the fact that he actually took a Senzu kind of points to the purpose that Vegeta wanted to be at full health and power before fighting Boo.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME Oct 27 2015, 11:34 PM Post #13
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Dark Matter
Oct 27 2015, 11:32 PM
I think the fact that he actually took a Senzu kind of points to the purpose that Vegeta wanted to be at full health and power before fighting Boo.
But I'm saying that it doesn't mean that he was at full power at the start.

But that's neither here nor there...
Edited by DEY DID DIS 2 ME, Oct 27 2015, 11:35 PM.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME Oct 27 2015, 11:42 PM Post #14
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 As for (Cell Games) Son Gohan to Son Goku, the former was clearly not impressed with the performance of the latter and wondered why the latter and his opponent were holding back so much. On top of that Son Goku was expecting Son Gohan to gain even greater power while fighting Cell (although no one was expecting another transformation, which seems to stack even more so). So, from my perspective, Son Gohan makes light work of Son Goku.
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Thiln Oct 28 2015, 02:28 PM Post #15
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Oct 27 2015, 10:09 PM
Thiln
Oct 27 2015, 10:00 PM
Goku already felt that he was reaching a barrier after leaving the RoSaT. The fact that he could still achieve some sort of gain for his normal SSJ state over the 7 year time skip is quite notable. As to your question - I consider Goku to have gone up from being 10-15% weaker than his son to being 10-15% stronger. With the largest possible discrepancies for such estimates that's an increase of 30% altogether. Not bad for someone who needed to rely on further transformations to make any significant increases.

I suspect Vegeta may have had an inkling about Goku still being stronger during the tournament. He made no outward boasts of superiority from what I recall and was concerned enough about his strength being insufficient to accept help from Babidi to bring himself up to par with his rival. With Gohan, he originally wanted to fight him as well to see if the gap had closed. He probably felt much more confident going up against Gohan than he did with Goku since he was aware of Gohan's slacking off and was unlikely to have made much, if any progress.
How close in power Is Vegeta to Son Gohan (Cell Games)? Relate Son Gohan (Budokai 25) to each of the other aforementioned characters.
Vegeta from the 25th tournament? The gap has been closed by quite a bit, in my opinion. He and Gohan from the Cell Games should be rivaling each other. If there's any discrepancy then it's minor, maybe 5% if that. But then I don't consider the Majin charm's boost to be all that great for Vegeta since he was already pushing towards his peak with SSJ2, that is if he hadn't already reached it when you consider that Babidi stated how he was bringing Vegeta past his limits.

I think Gohan from the 25th tournament is about 15-25% weaker than what he originally was at the Cell Games. At best, he's still on-par with MSSJ Goku from the Cell Games, and at worst the power roles have been reversed. With Goku from the Buu arc, it's a 25-40% difference with his son from the same arc. What do I base that on? Nothing besides the cumulative discrepancy with Goku being stronger than CG Gohan and Buu arc Gohan being weaker than his younger self.

Gohan was clearly superior to his father at the Cell Games. However, I don't believe the gap was so big that Goku would be incapable of putting up a fight against him. A gap of 10% would give Gohan a clear advantage, whereas 15% is typically the bare minimum to ensure that a fight isn't one-sided, in my opinion. Something else to keep in mind is the fact that Goku was actively trying to fight Cell, thus putting himself in a more likely position to suffer injury. Gohan was only interested in avoiding his opponent's attacks. Had Goku adopted the same strategy, I suspect he would have some measure of success in dodging Cell, albeit not as much as Gohan.
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